Zachary Lint (aka Coolzey) Interview

Zachary Lint is a multi-medium creator from Fairfield, Iowa, widely known for his music recorded and released as Coolzey. In our conversation we talked about his musical history, including the two albums he's released this year, but also his new short film called Burlington Paranormal. The horror comedy is still making its rounds on the festival scene, but if you want to be one of the first to know when it's available to stream or purchase I recommend kicking in on its GoFundMe page. The process of getting to this point with the film didn't happen overnight though. Instead, the path to its release involved several years of working in L.A., an abandoned feature-length film, a return to Iowa, and the sale of his house, which funded its production.

villin: It's sort of a funny way to bookend an episode, but what you just heard is a song called "You Fucking Suck." The track is from Coolzey's album called Thank You for Drinking of Me, which was released in February, and in this episode of the villin podcast we walk around some ideas regarding why something like this is a good fit. Primarily, it just felt like the thing to do, and when we were talking it came up in discussion and seemed like a good fit. Zachary Lint has performed as Coolzey for over two decades, but the main reason for us speaking revolved around a short film he's made called Burlington Paranormal. Prior to digging into that, we broke the ice by talking about Cedar Rapids, where I'm based, and one of Zachary's connections to the city, the MC imperfekt. imperfekt and I recently spoke for an article about his vintage clothing store, but he's also been a longtime collaborator and friend of Zachary's. The two got together on a great track called "That's That," from Coolzey's most recent release, but Zachary dove in with another memory of from a past collaboration between the two.

Zachary Lint: There's a nerdcore group on Facebook and they have a running yearly competition called the V.P.C. I think it stands for Vocalist Producer Competition, where different MCs will team up with different producers and they'll form a team, essentially a new group or a duo or whatever, and they'll compete. And every year it's a big thing and a lot of the main nerdcore dudes will participate in it. And the judges will have a certain number of challenges and then you do your challenges and everybody judges on certain things. He was on my last track for that, which was kind of a pop/punk mashup. And my idea for it was getting a whole bunch of non-nerdcore MCs on it. Anyway, it's something you've got to delve into, but it's called "Bring Out Your Nerds." And he was on that, it was just basically, I was getting people who weren't nerdcore rappers to rap, nerding out about stuff that they wanted to nerd out about.

villin: Nerdcore isn't a subgenre I'm overly familiar with. Actually, most of what I know about it revolves around the artist Spoken Nerd, from down in Nashville where I moved up from earlier this year. It's a small world, because Zachary has both toured and recorded with Spoken Nerd previously, though that's not entirely surprising considering the vast range of artists he's worked with over the years. The debut Coolzey album, for example, featured a wide variety of guests including Sadat X of Brand Nubian, Copywrite, and William Elliott Whitmore. And in addition to imperfekt there were about 20 other artists he worked with on that last album I mentioned.

Zachary Lint: So, that was a producer album that I did. It was ten songs where I did all the beats and I produced for other people. And that was the only track that I actually rapped on. It was the last song on the album and it was conceived by Mikal kHill from North Carolina, who's a nerdcore dude. And basically, it just a posse-cut angry diss track. Like, a vague diss track against whatever you wanted to be mad about. So, that's what that song was. It was the tenth song from a ten song producer album I did. It was a sequel to [Coolzey and the Search for the Hip Hop Hearts Vol. 1]. And the first volume I did was ten years ago in 2011 and it was called He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper and this one's called I'm the DJ, They're the Rapper.

villin: Zachary isn't a producer first, nor is he a rapper first. Nor has he ever really been tied to the convention of genre. I can't remember where, but in another interview I read he explained his music as "alternative." To me it's sort of like the Beastie Boys. Most people know them as MCs, but they started out as a punk band, and laced their albums with hardcore, slapstick country, and funky grooves. Coolzey's 2020 album, Fight the American Celebrity Machine, is accompanied by a description that likens it to "A mix of lounge, hip-hop, synth pop, alternative music that ranges in unlikely marriages of styles from Frank Sinatra to Old Dirty Bastard [sic] and beyond." All of which is just to say that for those familiar with Coolzey's catalog, the album fits in nicely, in addition to serving as a welcomed change of pace for the musical renaissance man.

Zachary Lint: You know, I like classic producer albums. Like, Pete Rock used to put out producer albums where he would [have] a bunch of people on it. Like, Marco Polo and stuff like that. I like the classic producer album. It's really nice for me to step back from the microphone and just make sure everything sounds nice and make a good beat and fit everybody in and get to be the RZA for a bit, you know?

villin: Again though, when reaching out, my thought was primarily to talk less about music and more about the film production side of things. But it's not like there is no Coolzey right now. Zachary has released two albums this year, and has plans for multiple tours in the new year with Snailmate and Schaffer the Darklord (as a sidenote: "You Fucking Suck" is actually a collaboration with the latter). He's also cracked open his archive on Bandcamp, offering a variety of back catalog and special releases to subscribers on his page, dating back to the 1999 album, Coolzey and the Sucker MCs. This, while he's exploring and working through the film festival process for Burlington Paranormal, keeping up with his job, DJing, and moonlighting at his local cider house in Fairfield, calling bingo and performing Frank Sinatra covers as Drank Sinatra. With all this going on, I asked him if he ever feels like he's not investing enough time or focus on any one specific area of interest and appreciate how he framed his approach.

Zachary Lint: I always like to think of it like kids on swings. And you gotta keep pushing all your kids on their swings to keep them happy, you know? As far as music goes, that was kind of a worry of mine at first because I put out these three EPs that were just straight up hip-hop, then [on] my first album the first single is a pop song, and there was a country song that ended the album. This is The Honey. And at first I'm like, "What am I doing, am I totally fucking up?" But then years later that's everybody's favorite album, and I'm like, "Okay, I guess I did something right." And I like to stay true to what I do… And also, before I was putting out those hip-hop EPs that people knew me for, I was actually doing indie tapes around Iowa City, and doing indie rock stuff and bedroom pop stuff, as well as hip-hop. To me it's just still doing what I'm doing.

So, as far as music goes, I'm feeling pretty good about it, but also I realize that now that I have fans, and a little following, it's interesting to see… like, I remember I put out my third full-length album, God Damned Friend Killers, and it was very much mostly rock and roll with a few hip-hop songs, and I was worried about it. Not worried about it, because it was actually my favorite album that I've ever done, but I was worried a little about the reception. And then I remembered, like, I don't really read my reviews or anything that much, but every once in a while I'll go down a little tunnel and I'll read 'em. I remember a couple years later, after I put out my fourth album which was more hip-hop, I remember reading a review where a guy was like, "Yeah, the third album was the best. It had all this punk rock and stuff." And I'm like, "Wait a minute, why didn't I read this earlier?" I have punk rock fans, you know? It's interesting to see. You only get to see what comes back your way, whether it's stats from Spotify or somebody who reaches out to you in an email, or somebody who reviews your stuff. You only get to see what comes back your way. It's always surprising to see how far your music goes and you just don't even know it.

So, musically I don't feel that way, but I hear what you're saying about my other endeavors like films and stuff like that. Well, actually, I've been trying to make a movie for a long time. So it does just feel like part of everything. I mean, I moved to L.A. in 2010. I worked for a number of years on a movie that I was working on, trying to get it made. And I almost did get it made, then it fell through, and then I went back on tour in 2014. So, it's not something that I just started doing; it's a kid on a swing that I've been pushing for a while. So, it's actually really pleasing to actually see it get made and get done and get into festivals and people's reactions, and stuff like that. I guess, for me, I've been working on all this stuff long enough, it's not just whimsical things, it's actual things that I've been working on for years, all of them.

villin: And when considering the various kids on swings at play here, film isn't a new, or even recent, addition to the mix. One of the projects I checked out in advance of our discussion, for example, is the 2012 indie horror film Dropping Evil, in which Zachary had a leading role.

Zachary Lint: When I was living in L.A. I did some acting and I do like to act. But my passion is in writing and directing. I mean, it was fun to do it, but as far as the movie that I was working on back then… it went the way that many movies do. I worked on it, I re-wrote the screenplay. For like ten years I was working on it with a friend of mine… or, not ten years, three years, but I re-wrote it ten times over three years. And then I had an investor and we had meetings and we had a contract. Like, it was very far. I had actors signed on, I had letters of intent, I had a guy getting ready to go location scouting in Cleveland, we had special effects people on… I mean, this is one of those things, on a podcast, I don't know but, like, Andy Milonakis was going to be in it, you know? It was just almost there, but I was working with these producers and they were uncomfortable with the contract that the investor sent for it. And there was some sort of, you know, basically waffling, negotiation and then the investor basically got fed up and withdrew his offer. And really, when it comes down to it, I wasn't ready to make a full-length movie anyway, you know? Like, it was a lot of money. It was like, I think we had a million dollar contract on the line. And I don't know what would have happened because I've never done anything like that before. For me it's actually, I feel a lot more comfortable that I did this one on my own and it was only a forty-thousand dollar short film. It was smaller scale and easier to pull off and I feel more prepared to tackle something bigger at this point in time. It was just one of those things. It was an experience. It almost got made. It went the way of a lot of movies in L.A. and didn't get made.

villin: When I explained some of my own entertainment industry experiences, Zachary rightly spoke to some sort of disenchantment, potentially even bordering on misanthropy, stemming from what I went through and how I interpreted it all. However he got to where he is with processing his own experiences, he's in a good place with them now.

Zachary Lint: Like I said, I don't feel like I was ready for it and it doesn't feel like it was the right time to do it. It seemed like it was definitely trying to jump way too far ahead in my process as far as movies go. It would have been nice to make a big ass budget movie but it might have been terrible and it might have been a waste of money, who knows?

villin: And if nothing, that experience helped better prepare him for Burlington Paranormal. The short film is interesting in its presentation. As Zachary said, some of the festivals he's submitted to have kicked back saying it's too long to be a short film, and it's certainly too short to be a feature. Also, in its delivery, I feel like it just gets going before it ends. That wasn't a mistake though, and there's more written for his characters to extend the story and the world he's created.

Zachary Lint: It was basically a very expensive business card. I just wanted to do it. I wanted to do it right. I wanted to have a whole crew, good actors, I got a bunch of good actors on it, friends of mine, and it was just something I really wanted to do. I have no regrets, I'm glad I did it, and we've actually been doing really good in film festivals, and everything. I just gotta keep pushing that kid in the swing and find out what happens next with it because it's a new thing for me, the movie thing. Like, for example, when we did a soft viewing of it here in Iowa I was also performing that night as Coolzey and I don't get nervous performing as Coolzey, but showing the film I was sweating, you know? Like, my friends were coming up to me trying to talk and I was like, I'm sure I was looking very freaked out. Yeah, it's just a whole new thing for me. I have never done that before. Which makes it fun and exciting, but it's a new process for me. I'm not quite sure what will become of it but I'm happy with where we're at right now.

villin: With a bit of hindsight, it's interesting to see how the timeline played out after production on his film stalled and he moved on from the project. It wasn't what he had in mind when he moved to L.A., but the unpredictability of life hasn't exactly led him in a terrible direction.

Zachary Lint: I moved there in 2010 and I was there on and off for seven or eight years. So, it was probably like 2017 when my dad died and I came back to help my mom and help her get everything in order. And then I kind of just stayed around. Every year I meant to go back and I haven't yet, but I also had a house that I was remodeling here in Iowa. I actually came back and finished remodeling the house which is actually how I got to make the movie. I sold the house and used the money to make the movie. But at the same time I'm doing all this other stuff, touring and everything, putting out albums…

villin: The clarity that sometimes comes with hindsight is funny. I remember back, to all these goals I had for myself and my life, and it's only because they failed or didn't turn out the way I'd planned that I was able to find the sort of satisfaction or fulfillment that I was looking for. Thinking back to this guy who started rapping with a crew called the Sucka MCs, and seeing where he's at now, lends itself to this thought. Not unlike how the film that didn't get made led to unpredictable new opportunities, I was curious how any goals along the way might have changed or morphed over time.

Zachary Lint: I definitely never really craved any sort of stardom, or any sort of… Like, I was always sort of not super into the idea of being famous or anything like that. I think at some point in time I was like—I mean, this is before I think Pavement was as big as they are now, but I was like, "I want to be like Pavement." Like, have a deal with a small record label like Matador or something and have a small fan base. I mean, that's still a pretty big fan base, but… Honestly, I'm very very happy with where I am right now. I'm pretty happy. I feel like I'm on a good track to where I want to be, and I am where I want to be. Music's just one of my goals, or one of my main things. It's a big part of it, but honestly it just feels like a regular everyday part of my life as much as everything else I do. Like, I work on houses and I make music and I write and I make movies and I, you know, whatever. Everything else I do, it kind of just feels like part of it and I don't have any grandiose ideas about it. But I do love doing it and I do love making people happy and I love people listening to it and all that kind of stuff.

I mean, I think early on I achieved a lot of the goals. This is something I come back to. When I was a kid I loved hip-hop so much and I listened to a lot of East Coast hip-hop and grew up on it. And to me the goals that I achieved early on, before I even put out my first album, just on tour, like, were pretty much exceeding the goals that I had. For example, I was on tour with Sadat X from Brand Nubian and we were friends and we were playing shows together and we were hanging out together and we were recording rhymes together and appearing together as guests on other people's albums and tracks. And when I was growing up listening to Brand Nubian, which I loved, there [were] lyrics in their albums where… Sadat literally has lyrics that [say] "They don't call my crib because they're scared of how act / If they call my crib they better get somebody Black." It was basically: Don't talk to me if you're white. So to me, having Sadat X be my friend and going on tour with him and all that kind of stuff was—that was huge! You know, like a huge goal for me. When I was a kid I was like, "I can never be friends with this guy because he would never be friends with me," but then we were friends, you know, and working together. And so those are the kind of things, those are the kind of accomplishments that make me happy, you know?

villin: That web of friendship and collaboration is what first jumped out to me when I was first exposed to Coolzey's music. Several months back I watched a music video for the song "Pound House Rap," which I swear I saw several years earlier. It's a complementary piece to the web series Pound House, from DJ Douggpound featuring the likes of Brent Weinbach and Johnny Pemberton. And I remember Johnny from ages ago when I was really into Duncan Trussell's podcast and he appeared as a multiple time guest, but also from his role in the series You're the Worst, which I fell in love with over the pandemic. Johnny is one of the co-stars of Burlington Paranormal. And DJ Douggpound is on a track from Coolzey and the Search for the Hip Hop Hearts. I failed to articulate my thought well when we were talking, but there seems to be this endless breadcrumb trail surrounding Zachary's work, leading to people like Sadat X, who are part of some larger artistic journey. And I love that. One more name along the way is Joe Genaro of the Dead Milkmen, who ended up as a recurring tour-mate and friend.

Zachary Lint: We've been on four tours, maybe five tours together. Joe is one of my absolute favorite people to tour with. As I got older, I started only touring with people who I just… Like, I used to just tour with whoever, you know, just to work. You gotta work, so you're touring with people. And sometimes they were big artists, too, like Gift of Gab [of Blackalicious] and people like that. But I got to a certain age where I was like, I'm just going to tour with people I like to tour with because they're my friends and we have good shows and we have weird music that we play that complements each other. And that's one thing about the Dead Milkmen is they're one of the most in-my-vein artists that there are. They kind of go all over the place, you know? They're weird, they genre hop, and all that kind of stuff. But, basically Joe and I just became really good friends and we just toured together because we liked hanging out and we wanted to work and we like playing shows and it just was a good fit. We did a bunch of tours together and unfortunately we were on tour in March of 2020 and we still had nine shows left and we were traveling from Tallahassee to Birmingham when the shit hit the fan. We had a meltdown and I had to put him on a plane back to Philadelphia and I drove straight back from Alabama to Iowa.

villin: It's an aside, but I first heard the Dead Milkmen when Napster was in its heydey and I was downloading treasure troves of music from groups I'd never heard of, becoming exposed to a ton of wildly influential stuff along the way. One of the few songs I remember from the band is "Bitchin' Camero."

Zachary Lint: I remember that song from when I was a kid. I remember my friend had a tape of that album, Big Lizard in My Backyard. Dead Milkmen were very conducive to kids, like, silly, you know? They were also very subversive. I just love that vibe. It's dark, yet funny, yet thoughtful, and there's tear-jerking stuff, and Joe's just the master of all that stuff. He's just really good at it.

villin: That thread of subversiveness is one that I think winds its way through Zachary's work, and it's also something at the heart of what can make a genre like horror enjoyable. And that brings us back around to the connection with Burlington Paranormal, but also horror in general, making light of established tropes and commenting on the seriousness of life. A few years back Zachary made a short called "Take the Worm," putting the early bird gets the worm-type jargon equally through a wringer of mockery and psychedelic horror.

Zachary Lint: So, I had done some directing and writing for music videos and stuff, but that was my first actual little piece that I had done that was not musically-based. And the whole idea was like, to me it was like a commercial for a men's product gone wrong or something. Where the narrator starts to turn on ya, you know? But it definitely has horror to it. I like psychedelic horror and just like, I'm sure it has some Lynchian aspects to it—definitely influenced by David Lynch. But it was just something I wanted to do. It was a no budget, run and gun thing. We shot it in a day just to do it. That was after my movie had fallen through and I had just come back to Iowa and I'm like, "I just want to make something."

villin: I got a kick out of the main character's drift into madness, externally conversing with internal dialog—which is something I've no doubt done in my own past—but further, the embracing of the absurdity of life. In that period of time I talked about earlier, which Zachary said led me to a bit of disenchantment, or disillusionment, I was still trying to find the humor of it. In the heat of that period I made a web comic commenting on jargon-rich marketing hucksters and a weird short video twisting serious and foreboding sounding nonsense into an ad to sell toys. Which is just to give you an idea of how my mind and sense of humor have worked to deal with this kind of stuff. It was refreshing to be reminded of how important it is lean into the silliness of life rather than become weighed down by it.

Zachary Lint: Well, yeah, it's something I've struggled with my whole life but also, I think that part of that is that you have to find the humor in it. And I think that is what that was all about to me. Being able to find the humor in the horror, you know? Which, the short that I made [Burlington Paranormal] is a comedy horror. And I think that those are my two favorite genres because you gotta be able to find the humor in the horror of life. And I think that "Take the Worm" definitely falls into that genre, as well. [...] I mean, when I was very young I watched Evil Dead 2 and it's the perfect comedy horror movie. It's just so much of both. Yeah, I love that juxtaposition. And, I think, most good horror does have a sense of humor, you know?

villin: And this led a bit further down the rabbit hole of comedy and horror.

Zachary Lint: Well, I also actually watch ghost hunting shows religiously. The worst ones. I don't even care. [Investigation Discovery], all that stuff, I love it. Because there's something so horrifying but so funny, at the same time, about people stuck in their haunted houses, being tortured by ghosts that are just other people that died that are stuck in these haunted houses. It's kind of like the human condition, except extrapolated, you know? Like, you gotta see the humor in it, but also it's dark. I mean, dark humor, you know? That's definitely in my wheelhouse, for sure.

villin: Not unlike Zachary, who said one of his favorites is The Exorcism of Emily Rose, I'm drawn to movies that weave religion or theology with horror. When taking a step back now, long after our conversation ended, it's an interesting thought to consider what he talks about here with regard to Hell. And not just the humor of creating our own Hells, but how the trappings of our misguided goals can contribute to that.

Zachary Lint: I'm also fascinated by the concept of Hell. A lot of demons and Hell [has] to do with Christian stuff, but I think of it more in a philosophical way. Like, Hell is a state of mind. You can have Hell on Earth. But also, I think, we created our own Hells in this life, and maybe beyond this life. For example, people that believe that they're going to Hell, and then they go to this Hell that they've created with their own mind. That kind of stuff. And when you come out of it, you gotta think, if you believe that the human soul is infinite, there's got to be a certain point in time where you come out of it—that Hell—and you're like, "Well…" At some point you gotta laugh at it, no matter when you've been through. You gotta be like, "Well, wow, I did that to myself," you know?

villin: It might be a stretch to align this dialog about Hell with the previous mention of goals, but at the same time I don't think it is. Hell can be getting trapped in expectations as much as anything. In a way this relates again to the business card idea Zachary had mentioned. The things we all do, purposefully or otherwise, are our business cards to the world. I'm thinking back to how many times I got caught up with my own faulty goals and how that became a sort of temporary Hell, thinking the business card I thought I was putting out to the world wasn't leading me where it needed to. All the while the salvation of the whole thing—to use a religious term—was found when the business card led me to an outcome or opportunity I couldn't have predicted.

Zachary Lint: You can talk about making films forever. And you can say "I've got this good idea, blah, blah, blah." But I actually took my own money and made it because I just wanted to be like, "Here, this is what I can do," you know? In that sense it's a business card. It's something I knew I could do. It's something I knew would be dope. I got a good crew, I got a good cast, and I executed it well, and I'm happy with the product. Everybody else seems happy with it. So, in that sense… I mean, also, every album is like a business card, you know? Unless you're lucky enough to have somebody invest everything in your album or your whatever—your project—you just gotta keep making your art. In that way it is. Not that I'm so crass to say that it's all for a business, but I mean, I'm going to make it one way or another. Regardless, as far as the world goes, people giving you money to do shows or make more movies, then yeah. They are business cards.

villin: In 2013 Zachary put out a Coolzey album called Hit Factory, and its Bandcamp page includes a comment which reads, "I like the idea of making hits for yourself. Songs that are a hit to you, or something you create that you can enjoy for years." Enjoyment is an outcome that often gets overlooked when considering goals or measures of success or any of that kind of self-serious stuff. When we were wrapping up I asked if there was a song Zachary wanted to use around our discussion and he instead asked me if there was one I had in mind. Maybe in a different context, a song with a chorus of "You Fucking Suck" might appear a questionable decision, but it just felt enjoyable here. And we continued to talk about that idea... despite getting overlooked sometimes, how enjoyment is aligned with finding humor in the horror: Seeking to make songs for yourself amid, or in spite of, the darkness or even the frustrating banality of life.

Zachary Lint: I think a lot of people go into making art when they're younger, possibly, with a feeling of… they're trying really hard to do something that will get them to a certain thing. I've never been that way. I've always just only made the stuff that I know I can make that's good. And I want to be proud of it and I wanted to be able to listen to it myself or watch it myself and feel good about it and enjoy it. And I think that's the integrity that unfortunately I don't think a lot of people have when it comes to art, because they're trying to do something specific with it to achieve a certain level of success. And that may be, for other people, something that works. But for me it's not my way, you know? I just do it to do it and so far it seems to be working. And I'm just going to keep on doing that.

villin: As we were talking, creation aligned with this story that's been banging around in between my ears relating to The Myth of Sisyphus. There's an absurdity to it, right? For those unfamiliar, the Greek legend of Sisyphus is about this character "condemned by the gods for eternity to repeatedly roll a boulder up a hill only to have it roll down again once he got it to the top." The absurdity of it isn't the meaninglessness of being caught in a loop of trying to achieve the unachievable, but getting caught up in the the human need for reason in the face of an unreasonable world. I don't know that it's the answer, but as we were talking this idea came to me and the word "enjoyment" came back out. If we're stuck here among the at times horrific trappings of our lives with whatever our own individual boulders might be, enjoyment might be the antidote.

Zachary Lint: I'm all about that. You have to enjoy the process. You have to enjoy every day. So, to me, I would say that's the key. There's no top of the mountain. There is no top of the mountain, I don't think. As long as you live in this world. I've met too many famous people who are miserable. And too many rich people who are miserable, and still are, and never will not be miserable. It's not about money, it's not about fame, it's not about that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm a big believer that you have to enjoy the very very simple little things. I mean, this is going to sound—everybody always thinks I'm crazy for saying this, but—literally washing your dishes, cleaning your house, sweeping your floor, making dinner, you know, all that kind of simple simple stuff that you do every day in life. It's all part of it to me. I look at it all the same way. I look at washing the dishes the same way as I do making a beat. It's like, you get to enjoy having a clean sink and plates to eat food off later the same way you get to enjoy listening to that dope beat that you just made on your MPC and letting it play over and over again while you're doing the dishes.

I think there's a humility you have to be able to achieve that sort of continuity of… or any sort of prolongment of your enjoyment of these things. That's it though. You hit the nail on the head. It's about enjoying it. It's about enjoying it and it's about enjoying every part of it. Pushing it up, being at the top, watching it go down, going back down to the other side. Whatever it is, you know? I think it's all part of it. I think it's foolish to think that things are any other sort of way. Like, you're going to achieve enlightenment or you're going to achieve some sort of threshold where you don't have to do those things anymore. You may not have to wash your dishes anymore, for a while, but you're still going to have other things to do that are similar, no matter how rich or famous or whatever you get. There's always something that you have to do in this life. To me it is very much about enjoyment of the process, for sure.

That Honorroll KID Interview

That Honorroll KID is an MC based in Des Moines who just released a new album titled Peace God. In our conversation we discussed how the 18 track full-length differs from past work, including the Phase 2 EP which he dropped earlier this year with 1400slim. We also touched on how Honorroll Records was created and how he's developed since first releasing Say No More, in addition to broader themes surrounding masculinity and how to find peace within.

villin: Hey, this is villin and that track is titled "Work" by That Honorroll KID from his new full-length album called Peace God. In the conversation we had focused around the release we dove in head-first, with the MC explaining away any religious connotation associated with the album's title, instead interpreting it more as something signifying strength and equilibrium.

That Honorroll KID: It's like the power within me and the peace within me, just finding a balance in all of it. Can't get good without bad, you know what I'm saying? Can't get bad without good. Just trying to find my own balance; that's where the peace comes in.

villin: If anything is true about where KID at in this season of his journey, it's that a search for balance is at the heart of it. There's an aspect of it that deals with just being a man seeking internal harmony, and we talk about that more later, but as he explained, the album itself goes a long way in digesting his creative process to this point, and developing a far more well-rounded piece of work.

That Honorroll KID: I would say this is me putting it all together. Kind of, like, polishing what I do best and honing in on the things that I tried to expand on before that I didn't really execute on, in my opinion.

villin: In terms of the story on how KID got to Peace God goes though, there's a lot more to consider that led up to the release of the album. More specifically, we spoke at length about how the entire Honorroll crew came about and the Phase 2 EP, which was released a few months ago with Des Moines' 1400slim.

That Honorroll KID: That's like my cousin. We grew up together. We got a lot closer as of late with music and just being around each other a lot more since I got back from college. But we grew up together. Our families are tight and my mom knows his mom very well, our little brothers play basketball together, we play basketball together. Just family.

villin: As for the term "Honorroll," it's a distinctive word that was agreed upon by a close-knit group of friends looking to create something of a mission statement for their work.

That Honorroll KID: We're all honorroll. So, Honorroll Records is TC, me, and then 1400slim. It originally got started with me and TC out of high school. And then we had another one of our friends who was our manager, who's also making music now known as keeno—check his stuff out—but he ended up being our manager. We came up with the name Honorroll all on the phone together.

villin: And what it means is something they've tried applying across all outlets of life.

That Honorroll KID: Grade A everything. So, it's like, I feel like Grade A goes with everything. It's the best of the best so no matter what you're talking about it's number one. Honorroll, like, me personally, I didn't make the honor roll. TC made the honor roll. But when I came up with the name, the girl that I was with at the time, she had a whole bunch of honor roll achievements on her wall. And I was just looking up, I happened to be looking up and seeing, I was like "Honorroll Records." And that shit just rolled pretty well. The Grade A, you know what I'm saying, the best, that could be like either smoking, that could be with school, with grades, that could be with quality of something, just top of the top.

villin: The trio of TC, KID and 1400 put out a single earlier this year, but it was the latter who released the aforementioned collaborative EP this past summer called Phase 2. The second in a hopeful series of releases from the duo, it covered eight tracks, led by a single titled "FEELS DIFFERENT." How it differed from something like Peace God comes down to the broader approach of collaboration between the two.

That Honorroll KID: Man, OK, so like Phase 2, first of all I just want to say I think personally Phase 2 is way better than Phase 1. Like, it's not even close. But, my favorite track on Phase 2, personally, is either "SHARK TANK" or "TOO PLAYER." And I say "TOO PLAYER" because we made "TOO PLAYER," like, the day of the listening party. So we wasn't even really supposed to put it on the tape. It was just, I had heard the beat the night before and I was like we gotta put it on there. And we just kinda went in there and kind of executed it really well. But then I just like "Shark Tank" because I think "Shark Tank"—it's not the main song on the tape, but I just feel like we was just goin' crazy off the energy.

villin: "FEELS DIFFERENT," and secondarily a track called "POKÉMON," serve as personal favorites from the EP, but when thinking back there are a few different tracks that stand out the greatest to KID, himself.

That Honorroll KID: I think those are big crowd favorites, too. Like, "FEELS DIFFERENT," for me, we dropped that as the loose single off the tape so I've been listening to it a lot more. So, it don't give me the same feeling it did when I first dropped it—it kind of feels different. But it's still hard, I like "FEELS DIFFERENT." That's like a different type of sound that I have, I feel like.

villin: Continuing, he added that this variant in sound really does come down to the collaborative spirit between himself and 1400slim. The EP also contains a few features from GnarlyJevy, who also appeared on the track "Work," which introduced this episode.

That Honorroll KID: It probably leans a little bit more on 1400's sound, if that makes sense. It's a collaborative process, we've both got the same vibe when we in there together, we work well off each other, but it leans a little bit more to his side of things. That's why I think Peace God's gonna come in and really re-establish what I do with my music.

villin: Now in his mid-20s, KID began writing and recording music as a teenager. His first release, Say No More, ran 16 tracks, and still sounds fresh despite being the output of someone learning to experiement with the medium. While the release served as his formal introduction to putting music out as part of the Honorroll crew, music itself is something that's been with KID for much longer than just a few years.

That Honorroll KID: I've always been big [into] music. Like, I used to sing when I was younger. And I always liked rapping and stuff, but I started actually writing and getting serious my senior year of high school, after the basketball season, and after this kid named Terry had died in the neighborhood, or whatever. And I just got really serious about making a project around that time that I just never dropped. And so then, me and TC got even more serious. We had dropped a couple songs and then after that we just never looked back. With Say No More I feel like I love that project, I feel like I had a lot of good ideas, I just wasn't in a position to execute 'em. I didn't really know what I was doing completely, I just kind of dove head first in trying to just establish that I could do it.

villin: When looking back and thinking about the string of releases that followed, I asked what separated Peace God, and what he hopes listeners take away from it.

That Honorroll KID: First, I want everybody to say that it's better than Happy Tears. That's my number one thing. But then on a personal level, I would want people to say that I am somebody who's not afraid to express an emotion. And I'm not emotionless, but I'm aware of what having emotions can do to people's perception. So don't try me.

villin: Reflecting further on this point, I think it's really important. As the two of us talked, we discussed what we were listening to and Kanye came up in the conversation. I'm not going anywhere close to talking about what Kanye's going off on these days, but he has made a similar important point in the past—that he's aware of how his public expressions of emotion have allowed those looking for reasons to misrepresent him an opportunity to twist those emotions and use them against him. That's not local to him though, as either an artist or a man, and that's what I heard here.

That Honorroll KID: I feel like as a man, especially as a Black man, we really not supposed to be emotional. Like, we not supposed to have emotions, like we not supposed to show emotions. And I've just never been that way, like I've never been somebody who could just hide all my emotions. Like, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I can act accordingly, but at the same time it's like, if I feel something I would rather feel it than be numb to it. I feel like a lot of my life I was trying to be numb to a lot of shit and I'd rather just feel it and embrace it for whatever it is. And then act accordingly and move how I want to move after that.

villin: This is absolutely a dilemma of modern masculinity. Even when it's authentic, there's this ever-present cloud of toxicity caught up in its makeup, leaving the blueprint for what men should be a twisted mess at times.

That Honorroll KID: I feel like it's just, like you said it's just a societal norm at this point. People want the man to be the man, or they want the man to be the man and women to be women, whatever it is. But I feel like we comin' out of that a little bit and I feel like there's a little bit more room for people to be whoever they want to be. But I feel like, even as a man who wants to be a masculine man, who wants to be a man's man—whatever you'd call it—I feel like you can still show your emotions. 'Cause, like, there's some little kid out there who's emotional and he looks up to you and if you teach him like you can't show emotions, at some point in life I feel like that's going to fuck him up. You gotta bottle your emotions, that's going to kill you.

villin: As we went on, what I continued to hear revolved around that introductory concept of harmony within oneself and balance. It's a reconciliation with self, really, and when I asked about how it all ties together I used the word "holistic" as an attempt to frame the approach. Where KID is coming from differs from that a little though.

That Honorroll KID: I would say holistic, but more just like spiritualistic. Like, I'm just on that journey and really trying to find myself. And I'm at peace with knowing I don't know everything but I know who I am. And I'm going to figure out what else there is to find out. And it's not even like afraid, I'm just more open to—I don't give a fuck. And I feel like I've always been like that, but I've been a little too nice about it, or more passive aggressive about it. And now it's just, like, I'm just going to make y'all feel me.

villin: We didn't talk much about specific lyrics or beats or what the songs sound like or what topics individual tracks explore, even. From my own perspective, I don't know that it would have made much difference in terms of changing what I'm hearing with the album, even if we had explored all 18 tracks on a hyper-granular level. Our conversation does, however, create a presence that helps me better feel the album, if that makes sense. Not to double-up on a phrase from earlier, but now knowing where KID is at, the album feels different than it might have had we not spoken. And he hopes that however listeners get to the album, that they're able to take away a message from it that's in line with the headspace that accompanied its creation.

That Honorroll KID: As far as Peace God, I just want everybody to find their own peace, man. And whatever that means for you. Find some way to not always be worrying or always be stressing or always be coping with whatever it is that you've got to do to get through your day. And sometimes taking stuff for what it is and just sitting in that moment and just embracing the peace of that moment. Sometimes stuff just gets too fast for people and I think that once you embrace that moment, you know what I'm saying, that's when you're going to find that real calm, that real peace that we all be trying to get to.

Teller Bank$ Interview

Teller Bank$ is an MC and producer based in Des Moines and his new album, The I & I, is the third in a trilogy released with producer Ed Glorious. This discussion drifts heavily into the esoteric, looking at such influences as the 12th book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible and Aleister Crowley's Magick: Book 4, comparing and contrasting different mystical influences in communicating the philosophy behind Teller's music.

villin: Hey, this is villin and that track is titled "Pop Star" from the Des Moines-based MC Teller Bank$. The song appears on Teller's album The I & I, which is the third of a trilogy released in collaboration with Indiana-based producer Ed Glorious. This episode is going to be a little different in that it is less focused on the music itself, and more-so aimed at digging into and communicating Teller's philosophy behind the music. This isn't to take anything away from the album, though, which is one of the season's best. For more on the release itself I'd like to direct you to Lucius Pham's piece for Iowa Public Radio, or my own review for Little Village Magazine. And, actually, that review is what sparked this episode. Before I heard a note of the album I was intrigued by Teller's album art, and in particular I went down a rabbit hole exploring the scripture used on its back cover. There, Teller creates an interesting dichotomy, pulling references from two distinctly unique pieces of writing.The first is from the 12th book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible while the second is a quote from Aleister Crowley’s Magick: Book 4. One passage speaks to a concept of not waiting until old age or for darkness to fall before honoring one’s God, while the other references the sword, an accessory of ceremonial magick, as a weapon which “strikes terror into the demons and dominates them.” I felt an urge to decode the vague nature of the esoteric references, or figure out how they might be related, but that was a failed pursuit within the parameters of a 500-word review. Fortunately, Teller was willing to discuss his ideas and influences at length.

The starting point here is trauma of the big-T variety. Raised in Denver and elevating himself out of the trappings of gang life, Teller uses vivid imagery throughout The I & I to explain the nature of his past. As an example, the track “Demons” finds Teller asking, "you ever heard them yell 'freeze' when you was at the post box?,” while in "Cain & Abel" he adds, "I close my eyes I see violence." Teller doesn’t characterize his experience as one that should invoke a sense of sympathy, but rather he shares it as a means of adding context to his current situation. Any of us are only who we are because of who we've been. The thread of trauma runs throughout the album, and in our discussion the theme of herd mentality also presents itself, whether relating to gang culture or religious practice. And in Teller's life, that mentality began to influence him from an early age, imprinting upon him a vision of the world that he is still working to reconstruct.

Teller Bank$: I'm learning a lot of the things that I was just taught to be, and taught that existed and the way that things are. It's like, I was molded by this environment that I described in The Grotesque & Beautiful, where it's like, I look at the hood as nature. It's one of the most beautiful things you'll ever see, but it's also one of the most violent, grotesque things that you'll witness happen in nature, as well. The same thing, in the hood, the type of love and natural camaraderie that you'll come across in the hood doesn't exist anywhere else, but some of the savagery and native things that you'll see there only exist there, as well. So, it's kind of like, you're taught a certain set of rules and guidelines of how to survive this particular environment, right? And you internalize it as the rules to life itself. You know what I'm saying?

But as you start to get older and start to understand, you start realizing a lot of the things that I learned and was taught to do wasn't necessarily about right or wrong, it's about survival. And so as your moral compass starts to shape itself and as you start to live and experience the environment on a first hand basis, rather than it being taught to you, then you start to understand the subtleties that go along with being in that environment or the actual nuance to the conversation of what is right or wrong. So, essentially, that's like the third album, my perspective as I am right now, going back and unlearning things that I was taught, learning things that I grew to understand as right or wrong.

villin: Every young person is faced with an interesting task as they maneuver childhood relating to the interpretation of value. Sources of authority promote different ideals and we're all tasked to balance a reverence for elders and authority figures with critical thought and finding our own path in the world. While elaborating further about his own childhood later, Teller spoke to the young person's dilemma here as a means of transitioning into the adoption and application of symbolism in his life.

Teller Bank$: The first thing I'm starting with is the metaphor for the sword. Basically the entire album draws back to my life, like, I grew up in a lot of gang culture, I grew up gang banging and involved in a lot of that type of stuff. And that's the neighborhood and area and the people that I was around, that's what they was into when I was growing up. You see it in different levels, it's like, when you're a kid you're watching all of the older people and everything is like this fantastical, glorified—you play those type of games, it's like cops and robbers, you know? It's a fantastical version of what's actually happening, right? But as a child you don't understand the reality and the terms yet. You're seeing all the things happen, people die, and people go to jail, and things happen. You're witnessing it, but the actual reality effect, it hasn't hit you personally yet so you're just observing it from the outside. So it's kind of like being a kid that's raised in a military family, from that perspective. If you looked at it like that, you have all these monuments to war and you see people in their uniforms, you see people's medals and badges and all these things, and you have this reverence for—even though you haven't seen the actual bloody combat of warfare, you know what I'm saying?

And so that's that metaphor of being a weapon or being the sword or being a device that's used to fight a war, it's very important to my life. And metaphorically that's how I view myself is, more or less, I'm the sword. You know what I mean? As I've [come] to understand it in my life now, where it's like I've taken the negative things that have been imprinted in me and my life and now I use it to a positive. So it's like the people that I am around now are positive people and I defend them with the same kind of fervor that I defended my hood back in the day. So, my role in the group that I'm a part of now, and the things that I do now, is still the same. I'm still the defender, I'm still the carnivore, I'm still what would be seen as the bad guy, right, or the negativity. But it's like, I am the sword that protects. If you're going to have a kingdom of love and peace and all of that, you still need an army to protect it otherwise the evil will come and take your peace away.

As the albums evolved there's been different portions of both the Bible and Crowley that I've used throughout both of the albums to kind of articulate some things. I live a very occult existence, so the different scriptures that are from the Bible actually come from different parts of my own interests in groups and societies that I'm involved in that have special poignant meaning to them. And the same thing with chapters from Crowley. So the Ecclesiastes piece is like the final of three scriptures that are important to me and my brothers as far as what we do and things that we're into. The sword, the wand, and the altar are all important pieces of magick or Crowleyism. So, just in terms of the trilogy, this album lines up with those scriptures and with the sword as being a conclusion piece. It's really about finding who you are yourself.

The I & I is another term for God, too. So it's kind of like, if you understand the scripture of Ecclesiastes, it's more like always keep God in your heart. Remember in your youth, as well, don't wait until old age to start making your life how you're supposed to live it, essentially, is how I interpret the scripture. It's hard to explain the one without the other, without the other two, or without those other pieces with it, you know what I mean? But that's the beauty of it, too. There's so much depth to it, if you really want to get in there and get into the meat of it, but also from a surface level it's very understood, as well. If you've never been from where I'm from, if you don't know nothing about the masonry, if you don't know nothing about Crowley, if you don't know anything like that you can still enjoy and appreciate the music and the album. But all of the different signs and symbols point to a lot of deeper spiritual references.

villin: This is where we get into the conceptual intersection which braids ideas from the Bible and Crowley with the influence behind the album's title, itself. This term, the "I and I," reflects a Rastafarian belief that God is within all people, and at an esoteric middle ground between these three concepts are themes revolving around self-awareness and manifesting one's own destiny. At this conceptual crossroads, if God is within and we're to pay respect to that presence, doing so might come in the form of giving gratitude, or self-love, including gratitude for one's own ability to strive through life's hardships and obstacles. As Teller explained, this focus on self is something at the heart of tracks such as "The Truth," where the challenge issued is one to recognize the importance of strengthening one's own relationship with the self. That personal resolve toward integrity or harmony is something he raps about in the album closer "Fed Block Illuminati," as well, speaking to how an outward view of the world gets twisted in the absence of self-trust.

Teller Bank$: The whole album really is about finding that love of self, you know what I'm saying? Finding the meaning and, like you said, you hit it right on the head, the love of self, because the term—the whole title is a play on a lot of different things, you know what I mean? It's your inner you, the I in I, the I and I, it's kind of like… it plays with itself if you think about it in terms of how it's set up. What is The I & I? Like I said, it comes from an old Rastafari term for actual God and it's about exactly what you said, the God that's in all of us, right? It's like all of us are connected to this source. On a grand scale of things God is surrounding all of us but on a microscopic level He's also inside all of us. It's that wheel inside of a wheel metaphor taking shape, but it's about finding that love in yourself because oftentimes our love is sewn into other things.

[When] I grew up I had love for colors, I had love for my brothers, I had love for my neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? I did things to gain a certain rank or to follow these dogmatic practices within my community, within my neighborhood, within my gang, that gave me honor and respect. That's all I know, right? But once you remove yourself from that… Like, for me, I moved to a completely different state, city, all of that, where everything that I knew and grew up to wear as badges of honor aren't recognized. It'd be like if I was wearing my army uniform and I got all my stripes and stars on it but I go somewhere else where they don't even have that. They don't care, nobody knows what this means, nobody cares what this is, right? So, what are you left with, you know what I mean? When you remove everything that you've gained your value from, right? You're just left with yourself.

Like you said, honoring that value in yourself is the most important thing. You can go search for meaning in religion, you can go and search for meaning through any different group that you can try to join to find belonging, whether it be church, spiritual groups, or whether it be a witch coven, the Masons, whatever it is that you want to go and get into that you feel like you'll find yourself and find meaning, you'll always have that understanding or have to have that value of who you are without all of those things. Otherwise it's all for not. That's why I like songs like "Finders Keepers" where I say "Traveled all around the world and ain't no where to find it but I found it in myself, ain't know where it was hiding." That song, "The Truth," where it's like, you know "Faith in God is worthless if you don't believe in yourself, material wealth is worthless if you don't have spiritual health," you know what I mean? It's like all of those different types of things, putting it in to where it's like… stuff that I've just learned in myself now having unlearned all of the things that gave me value, even learning to deal with certain problems, where it's like if somebody does this to you, you respond in this way. And just even the feeling of, you know, like I said, somebody else determining your rank and your value in any type of system. This is just a breaking of that and an understanding now, looking back on all those things and concepts that were brought up in the first two albums, kind of looking back on them now in an adult lens. From the lens of fatherhood, from the lens of now having to be a better person for the future, no longer being the future itself that people are trying to teach and show the way, you know what I mean?

villin: Wearing trauma as a badge of honor bears different significance in different situations, but think about how our own faulty relationships with ourselves, or perhaps self-imposed trauma, changes the way we view the world and the other people living in it. Teller spoke to this, commenting on the end point in gang culture which stems from the personal devaluation of the individual.

Teller Bank$: All of the problems and all of the people I know, everybody's just searching for acceptance. And it's because you search, you seek it externally because the hardest place to find acceptance is within your own self. Because you know all of your own shit, right? Everybody else, you can pull the wool over their eyes. You can convince people that you're not afraid. You can convince people that you're all kind of things, just in your actions. But you know, you'll always know all of the deepest darkest parts of you. And, so, the way you feel about yourself is ultimately how you're going to feel about the world and everybody else. If you don't value yourself or your own life then you can't even comprehend the value of somebody else's life. And that's why in a lot of places I'm from, the place I'm from and a lot of places I've been, the value for life is so low. It's not because people don't care about each other, around them—they actually care more about each other than they do themselves. And that's what the issue is.

villin: Teller came from the church, his background influenced by his family. And as we discussed his rejection of one set of values and adoption of another, it was interesting to track the parallels between the church and gang cultures. In both situations, the purity of the concept, or what brings people together, is prone to corruption by the prevailing trend of human nature, leaving many with a quandary over how to proceed. When involved in a group that is straying from your own ideals, what do you do? How do you reconcile other people's influences with your own? And further, how do you change paths when reaching a philosophical dead end?

Teller Bank$: [When] I grew up I spent a lot of time in church. My dad became a pastor probably when I was eight or nine years old. I spent a lot of time in church, but I'm the black sheep of my family. Around the time that my dad really got into church was around the time that I really started getting into all the bad stuff that I was doing. I lived a dual existence. I knew how to put on the face and be good in church and be an upstanding person but that wasn't who I wanted to be. I wanted the accolades from being hard. I wanted all the street shit, I didn't really want the other side of it. But just being in the other side of it, you start to see how similar everything really is. How much human nature just prevails, no matter what the setting is, all of that, it's like everything eventually breaks down and becomes victim of people's human nature. My dad actually was a pastor for a long time. He stopped. He doesn't really do church stuff no more, just 'cause he just fell out of organized religion. [He] realized that for all the positive that he could do in it, the system itself is corrupted, limited. So, if you're in it for the actual good of the spirit of trying to do good, it almost becomes more hassle than it's worth. And you eventually just start to focus on your own individual relationship with God and your neighborhood, you know what I'm saying, at the same time.

villin: This is where Teller became more specific with how he pivoted personally away from those issues in his own life and used the tools at hand to try to make sense of his world.

Teller Bank$: My actual spirituality that I practice is technically magick. I practice the [inaudible]. I study a lot of Crowley, I read a lot of Crowley. So that's like the basis for my… I won't say my spirituality, but my spiritual practices. How I learned to meditate, really a lot of that stuff comes from Crowley, or Crowley-like individuals and groups. That's what I was into. Once I started finding for myself what I was actually drawn to and into that's what came to me.

villin: Along with learning about the album's cover, I was also interested in understanding more about the symbolism that carried over into a tattoo Teller has on his arm, featuring a crest bearing a variety of different icons and references. In explaining the influence behind the tattoo, discussion also turned toward the adoption of a holistic view of spirituality, finding similarities across traditions and using various sources of mythology in developing a personalized relationship with a higher power.

Teller Bank$: That same book that that quote is for—my tattoo—is based on that. So, it's just essentially an instruction book. So, it gives you instructions on the different things that you'll need to be a magician. This, essentially, is a crest of protection that came—I want to say almost directly from the book, but I had it reimagined and interpreted. I put a couple different numbers on there; the 357 is on there instead of the 418 that Crowley has on his. And then I just have a couple other different symbols, like the five V's—that's my mantra—but, yeah, I got the sword, the crown… They're all different applications metaphorically: the sword, the crown, the wand, the altar, the cup. Different things that you also see depicted in tarot, they're all these different concepts that have existed for a long time. You see these different types of archetype through all kinds of different religions, that hold different types of significance and you see it even in the Bible, as well. The Bible is one of the most mystical, mysterious… If you have the understanding of the Kabbalah and Crowleyism and all that, and you go back and look at the Bible in a different interpretation, you can see a lot of the parallels. And then you start to understand, it's like, if you understand the crown and the sword and the cup from a Crowley standpoint, then when they appear in the Bible you start to get a little bit, "Oh, okay, now I'm starting to get this." This is the same information told in different types of allegories.

villin: As we spoke, I was reminded of a concept I love which comes from Bruce Lee. He referred to "styles" we all take on as a way of crystalizing personal ideals. In terms of religion, some people are Christian, some Muslim, some atheist, and these are each a different style, but styles can be identified in all walks of life. In his world, Bruce Lee created his own martial arts style, Jeet Kune Do, as the style of having no style—a practical approach to his craft which left open the door of doctrine, recognizing that his approach can and should be improved upon and changed as new ideas become available. When we stand firm in our own unique styles, Bruce Lee said, that becomes a crystallization, a hardening, an adoption of a particular position at the exclusion of all other styles. If I call myself a New York Yankees fan, I do so at the exclusion of all other baseball teams. If I call myself a Christian, I do so at the exclusion of all other religions. In his own way, Teller got into this subject of styles as it relates to spirituality and the concept of how incorporating various influences can help benefit one's own spiritual path.

Teller Bank$: It's my belief and understanding that the spirits of the Earth have existed eternally. And it's through man that God experiences the Earth. That's why you have all these instances of divine inspiration across… And you think back to ancient civilization, you have all these people who have never seen each other [or] interacted with one another that are participating in the same types of phenomenon. Building pyramids, acquiring gold and wealth and creating temples and these different things to essentially house and attract these spirits and they're all doing this, and they're all seeing some type of result that is making people continue to do it, right? So I just look at everything like—all the spirits of the Earth and all the things that exist in that sense basically use us as a vessel to enjoy the things that they want to enjoy or participate in.

That's the understanding that I go into a lot of religious things with, why symbology and iconography are so important and have withstood so many thousands of years, you know what I mean? This idea of a cross warding off evil spirits or being a holy thing has persisted through several cultures, through cultures that don't even believe in the crucifixion. The star, the symbol of a star, the circle, there's all these different things that hold different value and it really does… but, just in terms of understanding, figuring out how your brain works and what you're actually attached to, what your spirit is the most naturally inclined to be a part of—'cause everybody isn't just wired the same to work the same. Figuring that out is kind of like figuring out your codex, it's a coded symbol, each symbol represents something else, right? And every person has their own interpretation and once you figure that out for yourself, then it's kind of like cracking the code. It's like "ah, the crown is this, the sword is represented in this, the cup represents this, the wand is these things." And then you start to understand.

It's kind of like philosophy, everything is a meta language. If I'm looking at a cup and I call it a mug and you call it a cup it's the same thing, you know what I mean, we're just calling it different items. It serves the same purpose. Prayer [and] meditation serve the same purpose but just through different mediums. And different religions have more of a focus on different actual aspects of that, how to improve and how to do things. And I really feel like understanding a lot of different things, instead of limiting your mind to one interpretation, you can learn how to do a lot of things. Like, you can learn how to pray better by knowing Hindu style of meditation. If you apply that to your Christianity you'll improve your Christianity. And potentially vice-versa, I've never done it the other way, because I've only experienced things from one schema of learning Christianity first and taking everything back and applying it to that. But, I just think it's a valuable practice for everybody to get outside of your comfort zone. That's how I got into Crowley.

I grew up super religious. So, I was anti all of that. I thought everybody that was rapping was a devil worshiping, sold their soul to the devil… you know, I was one of them Killuminati guys. And I started reading Crowley so that I could understand. I knew I wanted to be in music, right, and I'm seeing all the symbology so I started reading about it to understand to help better protect myself. Because if you don't know your enemy, what do you know? You can't defend yourself from anything. So I'm looking at all of these things like, "Oh, this is evil, this is Satanic, this is demonic." And then as I start reading and actually understanding the material for myself I started to realize, oh, they're not saying anything different from what the Bible is trying to say through its stories. This is just more matter-of-fact; this is just from a different lens; this is just from a different interpretation or from a different walk of life than saying that's looking at it in these ways versus looking at it in a base Western Christian standpoint.

villin: Further, this concept of crystallization can become a point of divisiveness. As Teller commented on religious animosity that can bubble up between those bearing opposing views, the thought of gang mentality continued to linger in the background of our conversation. Flowing out of this was a question over how the purity of a group's stated purpose can be twisted into a tool by which to ostracize or castigate those who stray outside the boundaries of that particular viewpoint.

Teller Bank$: And, it's like, when you look at the purpose, you've got to look at things for the purpose. What is the purpose of Christianity or your religion? You've got to think, "Okay, so the purpose of it is salvation," right? That's what's sold to you in Christianity is salvation. But it's not sold to you in salvation on this Earth. It's giving you a set of practices through stories, it gives you a set of, basically, anecdotal stories throughout a certain area in history that are supposed to give you the practices that will help you lead a better life, but will also lead to your salvation of your soul. So, if that is the purpose, is just simply seeking salvation, then the exclusivity in that is simply human nature.

Where you see it all the time where it's like, "Well, my confidence in the fact that I'm right is that other people are doing it with me. So, I can't feel comfortable in the fact that I'm doing the right things unless I can convince and get everybody with me to do things the same way I'm doing things, because if somebody is doing things another way then that leads me to question what I'm doing." That's the toxic, that's the human element of it that we add to it. Where we forget the actual purpose of it is to be seeking salvation and we end up with a system that values conformity over even an actual… or the actual purpose itself being salvation. Where, a lot of people in religion could care less of your actual spiritual health, or how you're doing, as long as you're walking the walk and talking the talk then you are validating their belief, "Then, okay, yep, we're doing it the right way." It's not even about, "I feel like you're going to go to hell, I'm trying to save you so bad, I don't want to go to hell." Compassion isn't like that, otherwise why would we be killing each other, why would we wage war for religion if our purpose is to save another person's soul, why would we destroy their body over it? Right? It's not about that, it's about gaining the confidence of, "Well, it makes me feel insecure that you guys feel a different thing. And if you guys believe a different thing and get good results from that, and I'm not getting good results from what I'm doing, then I either have to fall in line with you guys or destroy what you're doing." My power of, "Well, I was given the power to destroy you by my God who you should be serving, not your God," who is all the same being.

villin: There's a practical application found in Teller's approach, and one that has helped him transition away from his former self and into the person he is becoming. That's what I hear when I listen to The I & I; someone attempting to reconcile with history and do right by themselves and their children; someone attempting to unlearn broken styles of thinking and learn a new approach to living.

Teller Bank$: What is religion serving to me? It's supposed to be salvation, right, and then I start to question, "Well, what does that look like; what do I need to be saved from, really?" And the idea of the devil just becomes a blank of everything negative. People don't look at the personal, "Well, what am I actually personally dealing with? I'm dealing with insecurity in my looks. I'm dealing with depression. I'm dealing with feelings of loneliness. I'm dealing with all these things." And those specific answers aren't given to you in that sense. For me, it was like, "Alright, Christianity is missing something. I'm missing my, you know… How do I find peace and solace in this lifetime, in this existence, in my current human form?"

And Crowley and the writing of that led more more to that understanding how to meditate and reading it and looking at spirituality in almost more of a scientific sense. Where it's like, let's remove the mysticism and let's remove all this stuff and just look at the data and really look at it and see what are we trying to achieve? What can we narrow down? What do all things agree on in all these religions? What is something that I can take away that's universal from all of them? That idea is essentially the same as what I'm exploring in the album. Where it's like, a lot of the times I was growing up to meet every situation with violence. I didn't know how to solve any problem outside of that. The solution to everything was violence, right? Now it's like, alright, removing myself from that area and environment that I grew up in, now I'm having my son, now I'm teaching my son how to live life. And [the] actuality is, in the environment that he's growing up in and the life that he's living, it's more detrimental to teach him the things that I grew up with. So I have to now take that and re-learn and re-do that and in that process refine myself and re-look at the things that I knew to be right and wrong and now reinterpret that.

Religion in its current form, Christianity in its current form, doesn't offer that. It doesn't offer a lot of actual open discussion for interpretation. It is a, "You believe this or you're going against us, and it's actually worse than just [not] being a Christian. If you believe that this says something different than what we tell you you're actually a heretic. You're the worst type of person. You're a blasphemer." You know what I mean? All of the philosophical conversation around religion is almost lost at this point. There is no more debate of, "What does this mean?" or "Oh, I think it means this, or I think that." There is no individual connection to it. And for me that's what I was lacking and just interpreting that as that's where I felt like a lot of people on Earth are lacking. It's that connection to the I, themselves, and the God that is within themselves that's just personal to them. Not the God of everybody, right? It is the same God, but the same God that presides over everything all at the same time is also uniquely inside you as an individual. You have to tend to that personally more so than you tend to everything else and everywhere else in the world, and what everybody else is doing, and the practices that they're doing in the physical. How is your actual spiritual health and your personal relationship with God.

villin: There's a balance at the heart of all of this for Teller. He recognizes the allure certain individuals find in this sort of abstract discussion and how that enhances his work, but he's also quick not to manipulate that appeal by catering to a specific audience or putting the mythos above the music. If you're just listening to the album and all you're interested in is good music, you're going to get that with The I & I. But if you're looking for more, there are countless roads to travel within its 14 tracks. That's the nature of the art and artist at play here.

Teller Bank$: It's not even like I'm pandering my spirituality to sell records, right? But I know that that's what gives my music its differences. That the content that is in my music is not something that you can replicate. I have what would be the equivalent, in terms of degrees, in both of my groups that I was in in spirituality, whether it be the masonry or other things. I pretty much have a doctorate in both of those. That's what makes me set apart from other artists. There are a lot of people that can rap great. I know a lot of artists that are amazing rappers, I know a lot of people that do amazing things. My specific niche though is what compels people to be involved in my art. The mystery of seeing a symbol in the background of my album and then saying, "Okay, what is this? Where's this from? What is he talking about?" Or even just being able to spot the references and those kind of things. My biggest fans are people who are reading books, have read Crowley, are into the occult, you know what I mean? Instead of me trying to make music as this mass appeal, and some songs I do make sound like that, but all of the content is so hyper-focused and hyper-specific on a specific set of interests and a specific set of people that it's like, that's how I create my value.

[This interview has been edited for length and clarity.]

Chris Jones Interview

Chris Jones is an MC and producer based in Des Moines, Iowa and he just released his debut album titled Unplugged. In our discussion we exchanged thoughts on social media, finding personal meaning in the creation of art, the branding of self, and a story of self-sabotage revolving around Naughty by Nature and an NBA game in Minneapolis.

---

villin: Hey, this is villin and you were just listening to a track called "Time Will Tell" from Chris Jones. The two of us recently spoke about his new full-length project titled Unplugged, which is what Chris calls his first true album despite having release several other pieces which date back to when he first started recording music in his mid-teens. While including a few self-produced tracks, Unplugged is rounded out by a series of collaborators, including production from Simon Hodapp, Joe Gallagher of Sonic Militia, and Wesley Opus, who also mastered the project. Despite the numerous cooks in the kitchen, what comes of the collaboration is a cohesive sound. The most consistent aspect of the album, however, comes with Chris' storytelling—a focus he takes seriously as a lyricist and one that dates back to when he began writing raps at the age of twelve.

Chris Jones: Some of the first songs I ever recorded were extremely story-based; not about myself, just about completely made up things. I figured out pretty quickly that I was pretty good at telling a story. To me, the trick is being able to tell a story and keeping the integrity of the rhyme. And just not compromising there, not compromising with the rapping at all. But, also, being able to tell a story in a way that if you were to just sit down and look at the lyrics without the music behind it it would still make sense.

villin: While Chris now wields a biographical approach to lyrics, it's interesting to recognize the threads of his creative progression which date back to his childhood where fiction was at the heart of his writing. It's kind of funny then to see a young Chris on the cover, at the time unaware where his life would lead, while the Chris of today looks back on that period and reflects on how fitting it was that his younger self was once shot playing make-believe with handcuffs, given what life had in store for him.

Chris Jones: Honestly, I was just over at my mom's house just going through old photos and I saw that photo of myself. And it's me in handcuffs, and I was like "huh, this is, like, a very foreshadowing photo that really works well with a lot of the content on the album."

villin: The thematic focus of Unplugged covers several personal subjects including legal problems and the death of friends, but its most magnetic lyrical moments land at an intersection between Chris' self-deprecating humor and a realization that he belongs behind a microphone doing exactly what he's doing. A balance between those two sides to him show up throughout the release, all the while finding the lyricist remaining firmly planted in the reality of his life.

Chris Jones: I took a little bit of a break from music because of some personal things, but I had to create some stories. And I had to experience some life and just get to a point where I could digest stories from my past and look at them somewhat objectively before I could actually tell 'em, you know? I don't ever like to force it, like today I probably wouldn't necessarily make a completely made up story and rap about it. That was me as a kid trying to figure stuff out, but I really do love to be able to tell a story.

villin: Originally from the greater Des Moines area, Chris has bounced around geographically, ultimately landing up north in the Twin Cities on a pair of occasions. Unplugged was recorded up there and the album features several tracks with a longtime collaborator and friend of his who lives in the area named LQ. While the New York native wasn't featured directly on one of the album's finest lyrical showcases, he was present and accounted for when the story behind the track titled "One More Song" went down. Through the track, Chris relates his story of self-sabotage, where an introduction to the legendary Naughty by Nature led to an opportunity to hang with them at a local NBA game. Instead of taking them up on the offer however, Chris no-showed the game, deciding instead to head home to write and record a song to show them through his music that he was worthy of the acceptance or attention that they had already shown him.

Chris Jones: Yeah, I'll never live that down. Honestly, I genuinely thought… I saw that as: OK, I have this big opportunity now. These guys believe in me, or they're gonna take a chance on me. I'm just going to go show them right now that I can get down and I can do whatever. And I made a dope song. So that's where my mind was at. And it was also like, I think I was maybe twenty years old, maybe twenty-one. I mean that's no excuse, I was dumb. And my buddy Q [LQ], too, 'cause Q came with me and he is a huge basketball fan. He was deferring to my judgement because he always really really believes in me, too, and he was just deferring to my judgement. He was like, "whatever you want to do." And that's the call I made. Oh yeah... should have fucking went to the game.

villin: Calling it "a lesson learned," Chris didn't write the lyrics as a means of closure, but instead just to share the story. While he doesn't seem to expect much of anything to develop from it, there may be more to add to that story as the coming months progress.

Chris Jones: I did shoot a video for "One More Song" at the record store in St. Paul owned by the individual who knows them and who hooked me up with them. And he was like, "When it's done I'll send it to [Naughty by Nature producer] KayGee." So, you know, at least they'll probably see the story and get a kick out of it, if anything.

villin: More pressing for Chris, compared to how his music might help him "make it big," have been concepts surrounding what his music might mean, or what difference it might have in the bigger picture. Despite using his wit in the process, Chris has found himself prone to self-judgement in the past, which probably isn't surprising for someone who includes a song on their album where he roasts himself as a "terrible rapper." Judgement in this case isn't without a point, however, and in this situation aligns with a sense of questioning the goal of his music, and what purpose it can and does serve in his life.

Chris Jones: Looking at my own music within the context of, you know, just some of the bigger issues going on in the world… for a little bit I just didn't see any importance in my music with other things going on. Kind of at the end of "Unplugged," the song "Unplugged," I say—I don't even remember the line, but it's something to the effect of "I feel bad for complaining about the stuff inside my music when people are dying every day." I had a lot of that going on and I was kind of just, like… I would like to be able to be helpful to individuals who really need help. I don't really see how my music is helping anyone. Yeah, I don't know, I sat on that for a year and a half, just those thoughts like, "You know you're not that important, putting out music is not going to do anything." But that was really just me being super analytical, which I'm certainly guilty of in a lot of aspects.

villin: It's within this space where you can begin to hear the push and pull of different influences. Several tracks invoke Chris' reactions to social media, for example, which is an area of life where he's continues to strive for a balance. On one side, Chris is soundly resolved to the notion he doesn't actively need validation from others, while on the other exists a hope that listeners can relate to the music. While producing the album, he wasn't certain that some songs would find an audience, but what came out of recording and releasing them anyways was a response he hasn't anticipated.

Chris Jones: I was pleasantly surprise that—it's interesting for me to hear people's favorite songs and stuff, and a lot of people really like "Time Will Tell," but a lot of people also really like "Wired." And to be honest those were a couple of the songs that… I mean, it's 2022 and I guess probably just from the amount of modern rap music I'm exposed to I thought this, but I was kind of wondering, like, specifically "Time Will Tell," I was like I don't know… I would listen back to it and this is long, and this is a detailed story, and it's a lot of bars, and that was the song that I was like, "Yeah this song is probably for me." But people love it. That surprised me. I'm just grateful for those people still being out there. I just wasn't even entirely sure how some of this writing would even go over being that it is so detailed. But people do like it, so I'm just happy about that, really.

villin: Despite not purposefully seeking validation, social media has proven a tricky tightrope to walk for Chris as he uses it to serve his music, sharing his work with an audience and trying to reach new listeners, while simultaneously avoiding its pitfalls. When talking about our histories with social media, we discussed concepts surrounding a self-centered viewpoint that social media platforms nurture, where everything at all time becomes about "me," contributing to a warped sense of self by allowing for a persona to be developed where all interactions somehow reflect upon the value of that online avatar. But what do you do when that avatar is you, while also being your "brand"? And where does the self exist within that space?

Chris Jones: I have become aware at this point—and I wasn't for a very long time—for me, I am usually in a better mood and my life usually goes better when I'm not thinking about myself all the time. And it's just like in general, day to day, the day's more purposeful. I'm not perfect at that and I'm not some guru or anything. But that is the tough part about social media. Even music promotion, too, because I've just been trying to get better at it and learn a bit about it and you need to put—or I now feel like I need to put things out there on social media. Some sort of content, even if it's a post about music, in order to just use it as well as I can for the purpose of music promotion. But the line between just posting on social media and doing it for music blurs extremely quickly. Particularly if you're someone who wants to build yourself up as an artist with a particular brand, which would be in the benefit of any artist attempting to get their artwork out there. But yeah, to me that's such a gray area, I don't even understand what that looks like for me. I don't understand how to create a brand out of myself when I'm only just myself.

villin: This is perhaps unrelated to any point Chris was trying to make, but in reflecting on our discussion I'm reminded of a line from Steven Pressfield's book The War of Art, where he discusses the relationship between the creator and their work, emphasizing that whether a creator is a "professional" of their craft can be determined by how they approach their work. He writes, "Madonna does not identify with Madonna. Madonna employs Madonna." The point he's making is that the creator here employs the persona for the creator's own benefit, and not the other way around. In thinking about the discussion with Chris, however, my interpretation changes a little. Social media has created a strange blending of the roles where the person is now also the persona, the creator part of the creation. And in viewing oneself as both a brand and a being, it's hard to always know where one side of that ends and the other begins. While struggling with these sorts of questions, himself, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that naming his album Unplugged marks a point in Chris' life where he's detaching or distancing himself from people, places, and things. But the irony is that the release seems to have helped plug him back into areas of his life that provide him fulfillment. He recently played a live showcase, as an example, which marked the first time in around three years that he performed on stage. Chris told me that seeing people and being seen and being part of something like that reminded him just how rewarding the whole process can be. And reflecting on that feeling, what surfaced was a still-developing sense of clarity around what meaning his music might provide, and what the creation of it has given back to its creator.

Chris Jones: I got a lot of confidence, is what I got, or motivation, or a mixture of the two. That's mainly what I got. I told you I've been recording music since I was fifteen—been releasing music since I was fifteen—and I've never, not once, referred to a project as an album until this. Because to me words carry weight and I wanted to reserve that word for something that felt like an album to me. So, essentially I'm like thirteen years into recording and just released, technically, my first album though I've put out plenty of projects beforehand. It gave me a lot of motivation. It just showed me something tangible, like that "you can make a good album." 'Cause I do think it's a good album. I think it's cohesive. I think it's, you know, I've thought it out. Just, in general, the whole process made me really motivated. It just made it feel really fun again, is what it did.

Gifo Interview

Gifo is a rapper based in Sioux City, Iowa and his new release, Hell Bound, is out now. In our discussion we connected on ideas around creative growth, the Hometown Heroes collective, Latino and Hispanic representation, and "Tears," which is one of seven new tracks on the EP.

villin: The two of us connected this week to talk about his new release, titled Hell Bound, which was engineered in Sioux City by Dylan Foote. While "Tears" was produced by 8teen, Hell Bound primarily features production work by NINETY8, who's based down in Texas. While the sounds are from beyond Iowa's border, the lyrics on Hell Bound focus on subject matter much closer to the heart for the MC.

Gifo: Lyrically, I do talk about some things that are going on right now as far as my journey and what I've been experiencing so far with this small amount of traction I've been getting. Like, how things have been changing for me, with how I look at relationships with other people and how I'm going to approach my life.

villin: A few months ago Gifo was interviewed on the Nasty Collective podcast and he spoke to something that caught my ear. I'm quoting him in that interview where he said, "In the past I did feel a little bit slept on at times." He continued, "Anytime that you kind of feel like that you have to evaluate what you're doing to bring to the table for people to notice you." This jumped out at me because it portrays a mature bend towards creative growth opposed to something more reactionary, where other people's opinions are taken too personally and leveraged against your own evolution. I asked him to speak on this.

Gifo: I definitely would say that Psychedelic really helped me—Psychedelic Sidekick really helped me—in my musical journey, in just being a big brother to me and giving me great advice and feedback along the way and just pushing me to be better. Having a friend like that has helped me a lot with just being able to even think that way. I definitely believe that if it's not resonating then obviously you're not doing something that you need to be doing. And it is an opportunity to take a look at yourself and be like, what can I do differently, what can I do better?

villin: And when speaking of doing better in our conversation, any sense of that was one associated with rising up with those around him, including several of his friends and collaborators who have gathered in the Hometown Heroes collective. The group, which also features Psychedelic Sidekick, Johnny Marz, Sifu the Sensai and producer AMMixes, was featured by Iowa Public Radio this spring, and they made their live debut earlier this month at the Saturday in the Park festival.

Gifo: Johnny got to play Saturday in the Park, which is like, in Sioux City that's a big deal once you get to do that. He was kind enough to let us come up there and show some of the stuff that we've been working on through the winter and up to now. We've just been spreading the love, you know, and that's kind of what Hometown Heroes is all about.

villin: While fresh to the scene as a whole, Hometown Heroes isn't Gifo's first experience creating with others though…

Gifo: Prior to this—I keep saying this last year, but really it's coming up on over a year and a half now—I used to work with one producer who would make all my beats and then he would do the engineering stuff for me as well. His name was Skylar Mann. We went by the Enigmas, or Enigmatic Records, for a while. And we didn't have a falling out, or anything, I just kind of wanted to start branching out, and not limiting myself to one source. For so long I was branding with him and it really started as a large collective. A lot of our friends are still involved in music. One of my friends is a music teacher now; actually, two of them. They used to co-produce all together, then it just kind of—like you said, life happens—and it just came down to us two. Branding that way really left me a clean slate to brand myself.

villin: And now pushing ahead with his own music, Gifo has released several tracks and EPs over the past two years including Never Late is Better, which only just dropped in March. Digging a little deeper into his motivation to create, conversation also touched on personal heritage, with Gifo explaining the meaning behind his moniker.

Gifo: Well, it's a nickname that some friends of mine came up for me in middle school. My last name is Rengifo. I don't know, I used to be kind of insecure about my last name, just 'cause growing up in Iowa, it's not like a lot of people's last names. I guess I just wanted to reclaim it and make it my own. Also, most of my life it's just been me, my mom, and my brother, but my name comes from my dad's side of my family. And I think also that was a piece of it, too, reclaiming my name as my own. Just starting my own path with it.

villin: This reminded me of one of his facebook posts from January, which read, "Last year I made it my goal to work with as many Latino/Hispanic artists as I could, for the culture and to create representation. I can proudly say I’ve done what I set out to do." I was curious what motivated that and whether this sort of thinking continues to inspire Gifo's approach now.

Gifo: Mainly, my focus at the time was thinking about wanting to do that and making that an intentional thing, there's a huge demographic of Latino and Hispanic people in Sioux City. And there's definitely guys that are older than me that have been rapping, or doing things, but I just felt like trying to be that person for a lot of these young dudes that are trying to get into anything but trouble—if they're trying to make music, or whatever their lane is, just representing somebody that... you know, I've been fucked up and I've been not in a great situation before, but if you just believe in yourself and surround yourself with people that are going to elevate you as a person, you can do whatever you want. I wanted to show these kids that don't, maybe, have the best home situation, or one of their parents around, or something like that, that you can do it, too.

villin: And whether intentionally or not, this theme carries over into the track that led off this episode, "Tears." As Gifo explains the song is a direct reaction to the current cultural vibration which has left its imprint on all of us the last few years.

Gifo: "Tears" is talking about the climate that we all face in America, no matter where you're at. Things are crazy out here, just trying to survive on a daily basis, for a lot of people, anyway. I guess, just trying to have some fun with things even in that, right? Just finding ways to not be scared of what could happen to you, and letting anxiety go, and just grasping—or basking in the moment, rather.

villin: As he continues, the track is also a reaction to a realization that if he didn't make a change in his life, he might lose the opportunity to keep going.

Gifo: On "Tears" there's a part where I was talking about thinking that I would be one of those people, you know? When you look at hip-hop, especially a lot of people that I look up to, or used to look up to, they're not here anymore. People like X [XXXTENTACION] or [Lil] Peep or Juice WRLD or... I think that's probably one of the scariest realizations that I had, was like "wow, that's where you're going," you know? Before I decided that I needed to change things in my own life. There's a part where I say, "I always thought that I would be the one to die young but I'm grateful / I made it to this point every day I wake up thankful." That's one of my favorite things that I wrote. I thought that would definitely be me and I would be the next person that went too soon. And that was a really scary realization for me at the time, you know?

villin: I respect the ability to funnel this sort of message and spirit into a piece of music, using the platform as both an acknowledgement of how life once was, but also as a vehicle to express how he wants to proceed with living in the present. Trying to move forward from a troubled past is the hard part, but when it fully aligns what communicates is a sense of authenticity, which has in and of itself, become part of the reward from Gifo's own artistic process.

Gifo: I hope that people fuck with the music and hopefully it resonates with some people. I've been putting everything I can into the music and just giving people a good product. But, just bein

villin on the Fringe Radio Show, Round 2

On Monday, June 20 host AL-D invited me to select another hour of music for his radio show, which hit the radio airwaves on Radio Free Nashville, featuring 20 tracks from Nashville artists:

1. Kaby & Brian Brown “Showstopper” (produced by Ohdee)
2. 2’Live Bre feat. Kyle Jefferson “Put The Work In”
3. Jody Joe “Nonchalant” (produced by $hrames)
4. Negro Justice & Gee Slab “Mr. Wonderful”
5. Trapperman Dale “Eat Right” (produced by Bandplay)
6. kidDEAD feat. Sophie Miriam “Live”
7. The BlackSon “Rolexless”
8. Out Here Boys “Savage Brothers”
9. Negro Justice feat. Amber Woodhouse “No Throwaways” (produced by Aaron Dethrage & JustVIBEZ)
10. Six One Tribe “10,000 Hours” (produced by JustVIBEZ)
11. L’Orange & Namir Blade “Nihilism”
12. Tmj “The Bells”
13. Case Arnold “Flowers” (produced by Carmine Prophets)
14. Ron Obasi “VILLELIKEMOOKIE” (produced by Reaux Marquez)
15. Walt Flames “Boss Up” (produced by Ohdee)
16. Kaby & the BlackSon “B.D.E.”
17. $hrames feat. Geronimo Flair “Giovanni”
18. K.O.N feat. WowJus7in “Space Girl”
19. Tim Gent feat. Case Arnold “Fly Away” (produced by JT & Tim Gent)
20. Sofa Brown “Keep Movin’” (produced by Sandbox)